Winch Capacitor

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Sugarphreak
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Winch Capacitor

Post by Sugarphreak »

So recently I have had to abandon my pursuit of using a Hydraulic winch (which is a whole other story) and therefore need to consider some options to beef up my electrical system for an electric one.



Primary concerns are killing the battery if the vehicle is off and over-stressing the electrical system if the battery begins to run low. In addition to that I would like to keep power to the winch at an optimum voltage to maximize the performance and prevent strain on the winch itself.



So being that I like to pick the road less traveled whenever making these considerations, both to explore new ground and inspire others... rather than simply add a battery in parallel with my existing one I want to take advantage of some new technology which has become increasingly more affordable... and dangerously more powerful of the last 5 years or so!





Behold... a few examples of 50 Farad Capacitors! (All typically priced under 200$)



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I personally am no stranger to capacitors. I used to be a big buff on car audio about 10 years ago; running cars that often won trophy's at SPL competitions. The only difference is back then to run sytems that drew well over 200 amps we used to use a couple of 0.5 or 1 farad capacitors... yes there was no such thing as a 50 farad capacitor, it is even hard for me to fathom how giant and powerful these things must be. The price is also amazing, back then we would pay sometimes close to 400$ for just a single farad capacitor.



Anyway, using some quick "beer theory" I want to give you an idea of how this would work. Basically the difference between running a second battery and a capacitor is the delivery and response of the system.



A second battery in parallel would work in conjunction with your existing battery to deliver a higher rate of amperage, a sufficient way to gain that increase in power but a bit overkill and also pricey. One of the downfalls of battery power alone is the voltage, often battery voltage can vary depending on the condition and load placed upon it, low voltage can be a dangerous thing both for your winch and also for your vehicles electronics as they are designed to operate within a range... running with low voltage can cause performance problems or sometimes even damage. The advantage of a battery of course is time, you can operate a winch much longer on a battery than a capacitor.



Consider now running a 50 farad capacitor; first and foremost I want to touch on safety. You can electrocute yourself in a split second with a capacitor of this size... capacitors can discharge their load nearly instantaneously... a connection without resistance between the terminals would result in a large explosion and poof of smoke, it would output much more power than even an arc welder. With a capacitor of this size I cannot stress how careful you need to be!



The function of the capacitor however is what gives it the advantage in providing a stable load. With a capacitor it charges very quickly, often only minutes are needed. Similar to a battery you would hook it up in parallel... it will charge automatically until something draws current that is beyond the charging capacity of the alternator. As soon as the system begins to experience a deficit it begins to discharge... instantly and much faster than a battery. It would continue to supplement power for the deficit until empty, then the system would default back to the battery.



Going back to my beer math for some example numbers; a winch under full load would draw roughly 400 amps at peak. Your alternator could provide as much as 100 amps, but the battery would need to supply the rest... unless you have a capacitor. Then that 300 amps would come from there; I did some calculations and found that a 50 farad capacitor could supply 300 amps for just under 2 minutes. Looking at the specs for the winch I have been considering that would be a pull of about 12,500lbs for 8.6 feet.



But being more realistic, winches are usually used at 70% or less. That means a draw of about 200 to 300 amps... which if you consider an 8000lb pull on the same winch would translate into closer to 3.5 minutes of pull time before it ever even started to drain the battery. Being that the winch would pull at a higher line speed that translates into over a 25 foot pull.



Now consider that unlike drawing on a battery it would be operating at a solid and optimum voltage with no variance for that time, also the second you stop pulling the capacitor goes back into a charging mode. You would get the maximum performance out of your winch during the pull minimizing the risk of damaging your equipment and not stressing your trucks electrical system.



Another nice feature of most of these capacitors is they often have a digital readout for voltage and capacitance. They also generally have a remote, which means you can activate them when you head out onto the trails and then deactivate them when coming off; It doesn't need to charge or stay charged. With a dual battery setup your vehicles electrical system is always teeming with a higher available amperage on tap than it needs unless you disconnect one battery.... although then you get into the issue of how to keep it charged.



Anyway, this is just my crazy idea. Let me know what you think!
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shotgun-cam
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Re: Winch Capacitor

Post by shotgun-cam »

Be very Carefull Your truck uses Very sensitive electronics the Audio capacitors are used mainly to smooth power not as storage devices. One short and you could face many thousands of dollars of fried Computers and sensors and no warranty. Also remember GM tells all mechanics on the Volt to discharge the batteries and capacitors before any work on the vehicle ( a 300 v dc system). Much cheaper and more usefull are power boxes ( they can double as emergency home power)most are lead acid or other high drain batteries and can connect to truck from power points. As for power most trucks charge at 14.5 volts you state 300 amps thats 4.550 kilowatts

for 2 min
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Sugarphreak
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Re: Winch Capacitor

Post by Sugarphreak »

You are totally right, in the past capacitors have been used to simply fill in the dips for a second or two of large draws. As an example I used a 0.5 farad capacitor to supply perhaps a second or so of power when sudden draws of around 50 amps over what the electrical system could supply would be drawn by the amplifier.



But consider this; the half dozen capacitors I mentioned above all have 100 times as much capacity. That is crazy! They are often referred to as "Hybrid capacitors" because they being to bridge the gap between a battery and a capacitor. In a way, with a winch you are simply trying to fill in the gap too... just over a period of minutes rather than seconds. Five years ago I wouldn't have be talking about this, it seems like only yesterday I was gasping at how big a 5 farad capacitor was... never mind 50!



As far as shorts go there is a similar risk with a dual battery setup, if you assume that your dual batteries have a combined cold cranking output of 800 amps each... that means your truck (when running) has the ability to discharge over 1700 amps at 14 volts... almost 24,000 watts in an instant.



Granted these kinds of capacitors can output much more, but with a remote wire (kind of like a built in relay) you can disengage the capacitor with the flick of a switch. I have been thinking about how to limit the risk of a sudden discharge into the vehicle; I was originally thinking about a 100 amp fuse between the capacitor and battery, but when charging it would likely trip that. I will have to do some research into seeing if there are perhaps some high amperage diodes that could be used.
Last edited by Sugarphreak on Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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dwaxman1
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Re: Winch Capacitor

Post by dwaxman1 »

WOW.. I wish I could add more here.. this is actually very interesting and I am learning.. thanks guys.. <img src='http://www.canadianhummerclub.com/forum ... ght_on.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':right_on:' /> <img src='http://www.canadianhummerclub.com/forum ... ght_on.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':right_on:' />
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Sugarphreak
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Re: Winch Capacitor

Post by Sugarphreak »

One little thing to add, I was browsing a couple of versions of the capacitor today and it became aparant to me that they have 4 terminals... an input and output.



This is very good news, this would serve to protect the vehicle from a blackflow of thousand of amps of power if there was ever a short. The only risk of a serious short would be downstream between the capacitor and the amp. It also appears as though the wattage has been limited on some models, the Stinger 50 Farad capacitor for instance seems to be limited to 10,000 watts at 16v... so 625amp max flow. Much less than some of the discharge rates of unprotected capacitors which can exceed 3000 amps.
Last edited by Sugarphreak on Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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shotgun-cam
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Re: Winch Capacitor

Post by shotgun-cam »

Ok thing is a battery compared to a capacitor is way slower discharge rate*. Also remember electronics will react faster than most fuses or breakers ( I blew many SCR's which quite effectivly " protected " the fast reaction fuses I was using )> I like my small power box. It charges from the Hummer can recharge my camera's and operate my computer as well as being and emergency boost to our and other vehicles. Being portable power can be supplied away from the truck.

*batteries store power chemically (that's why a dead battery seems to recharge after resting fresh electrolite reaches plates also why its important to keep fluid up in battery ) while Capacitors store power statically on the plates and thus can discharge almost instantly.
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