Canadian Hummer Club Forums

Some good information coming out of a CT4WD debate on which type of radio they are going to be standardizing for the club. Thought I would post it up here too for our members to look at and discuss.



________________________________________________________________

2-Way Radios:

________________________________________________________________



2 way radio means any wireless radio device that both sends, and receives transmissions (2 ways)



the standard bands are:

HF(High Frequency): an old technology, with many issues due to interference and signal loss over distance, can be found from 3-30MHz. CB(Citizens Band) is part of this, and is lowest and oldest band of radio commonly used, 40 channels with a range of 26.964MHz to 27.405MHz



VHF (Very High Frequency): a commonly used radio frequency for construction and communication, not used often for personal communication, frequency range is 30MHz to 300MHz this allows for many more channels without as much interference. Radios are typically found from 136MHz to 174MHz



UHF (Ultra High Frequency): a newer technology using extremely high frequencies that travel long distances and around obstacles quite well, this band also incorporates the FRS and GMRS ranges, UHF can be found from 300MHz to 3GHz (3000MHz) typical UHf radios are found between 400 and 480MHz



FRS (Family Radio Service): a band of radio used within the UHF band, allotted for recreational use, the band is low powered and has limited physical range, UHF radios can communicate with FRS radios, provided they use the same frequency, 14 channels (not including privacy codes) and are limited to 0.5W transmit power. Frequencies are from 462.5625MHz to 467.7125MHz



GMRS (General Mobile Radio Service): very similar to FRS, share 7 channels with FRS, are allowed up to 5w of power, and are found between 562.550MHz and 467.725MHz. GMRS channels are used with a repeater, which allows the signal to be even stronger over distances GMRS channels are also found in the UHF range



there are other bands/ranges that i don't know enough about to explain, but are not prudent to our conversation, and not typically used for what we would be using them for...



UHF is by far the most versatile of all of the bands, as it incorporates GMRS and FRS channels, and have strong transmitters. ALL bands listed above, with the exception of FRS frequencies require an industry Canada (IC) license, or FCC license, however i do not know what, if any enforcement there is for radio usage, i will not support or suggest anyone does use anything without the proper permits or licenses



because the FRS radios are limited to 0.5W of power, their transmit distance is significantly lower than VHF, UHF and GMRS radios CB are higher powered than FRS, however with the low frequency, the signal does not penetrate as well. The higher the number is, the longer the physical wave is, CB signal's wave is approximately 12 feet long (if i'm wrong, someone please correct me) this wave is easily lost behind obstacles. Think of it as rocks, UHF (300-3000MHz) are tiny rocks, try to shoot a load of gravel with an air gun, now try to shoot a boulder (cb with 27MHz) with the same amount of energy... doesn't go as far..



If you are seriously interested in it, wiki can explain it much better than i can, if you want the best possible setup for what we would use, get a CB installed in your truck, and buy a dual band radio, these work in both VHF and UHF ranges, though don't expect them to do 30-3000MHz, as most anything above 480 isn't used by any conventional radio, it is merely still classified as UHF, your typical VHF radios will have a range of 136MHz to 174MHz, and even a dual band will probably have a break in their range, from 174 to 400, what IS in that area, i do not know...



to end it off, i recommend either a dual band radio, or a UHF, and with those radios, using the FRS frequency range, a list of frequencies/channels can easily be found on google or wiki, to tell you the license free channels for your radios



________________________________________________________________

Why CB Radios sometimes have dead zones

________________________________________________________________



Basically if you are at location X, you get reception... however if are between the signal valleys you can actually be in a dead zone even if it is just 25 feet away.

Basically from what I can tell the recommendation coming out of the discussion is to move to VHF radios for emergencies and distance communications, however there seems to be a lot of support for retaining FRS for chatter and spotting.



While CB has been a popular choice the main issues with it are that it is restricted by line-of-sight and you do need the huge whip to make it more reliable. My handheld CB (as you guys noticed) is pretty useless. Newer technologies are quickly passing it as the first choice, as mentioned VHF radios are quickly becoming the new off-road preference for communications.

Some comparisons around CB antenna (HF Frequency) lengths I found;



-If you put 4 watts into a four-foot antenna, you will get the same power out of that antenna as if you were putting 2 watts into a 102-inch whip.



-If you put 4 watts into a 3-foot antenna you will get the same power out as if you wre putting about 1.5 watts into a 102-inch whip.

- Conversely if you put 4 watts into a 102-inch whip antenna, it is the same output as if you put 11 watts into a 3-foot whip.



-If you put 4 watts into a 7.5 inch antenna on a hand held CB, it would put out as much power as a third of a watt into a 102-whip.

- Conversely if you put 4 watts into a 102-inch whip antenna, it is the same as if you put 54 watts into a 7.5 antenna.



-If you put 4 watts into a 102-inch whip antenna,, it is the same as if you put 14 watts into a 28-inch antenna.

Another factor on most radios is the position of the antenna in relation to the vehicle. In general the closer to the centre of mass the better the signal spread. That is why Rhino carries his antenna just aft of the sun roof and on the centre line of the truck ( mounted to the foreward roof rack at this time.) Rhino has a range of just over 5 km with the present setup with minor obstacles Proven last run with Roys Pretty Pretty.

Seeing how you've done this research.... what do you think is best for our group?



I believe there is a push on for installing CB's which I was going to look at this summer but I guess we should decide as a group and anyone else can provide any valued input that they may have.



The GMRS radios we use now, while cost effective - do not provide even slightly the range that they preach they do.... I was half a click away and couldn't reach you guys when we were momentarily detained on that trail.



Is there a mountable head unit for vehicles that provides the power of the CB units, yet offer superior range that we need? I am a complete novice on this issue as I only now of a CB head unit for a vehicle...

I am not really sure which way to go; only FRS/GMRS & CB radios do not require a license of any kind. That is a nice pain free way to go... but distance is a problem with FRS, and reliability coupled with no real ability to call for help is the main issue with CB. Dave, you must remember when I couldn't reach those guys on that snow run with the handheld CB... both to tell them that Harold had turned around with his friend & when they took off and left us without enough straps to pull you up that hill.



When you get into UHF, Marine VHF, Amateur VHF & Commercial VHF they all require licensing. The commercial licensing is pretty useless to us because it requires a license on the radio itself and is limited geographically. I am still looking into what we would need to get a marine license (I mean come on, our Hummers are basically already giant boats aren’t they?, lol). The Amateur license is more like a HAM radio license, but you need to do a course and take a test... the cost is something like 20$ a year for renewal.



One of the reason VHF is becoming a preferred choice is because firstly the huge distance they are capable of, secondly is there are repeaters you can hit all over the place which are monitored for emergencies & you can also get assistance from the HAM radio operators who do it as a hobby, and thirdly is this is what all of the logging roads in BC require you to monitor when you travel on them.



As I mentioned before I want to see what the feasibility of us getting a marine license would be... marine VHF radios are way more common and inexpensive & come in truck mount & handheld configurations. The only issue with that is while you are allowed to monitor other bands (logging road & Amateur VHF) but you are not allowed to transmit on them.

Hmmm... the VHF seems to be the way to go by the sounds of it! Even if I have to pay a few bucks a year - works for me if we have reliability, safety, and the range that will ensure we will be able to reach other while on the trail.



The handhelds are great when we are in line which we usually are, but in case of the incidents as we've had in the past - would be best to have something better.



Now why a marine license... I did a quick search and it seems that the marine VHF is meant just for that - on the coast...



Here is the million dollar question.... is there a VHF unit that you know of that also has the capability of the other frequencies? (I know that's asking alot..)



Hey..... can we nickname you "Prancer" now? (LOL - I love that photo!!)

From the sounds of it Marine is out... you actually don't need a license for recreation use (which would have been awesome!), except it is illegal to have any land based communications or even mount it in a truck (with the exception of ship to shore support vehicles which have to be designated and licensed and only transmit on specific channels).



Now I am sure we could go ahead and use them anyway, but I get the feeling there are a lot of really bored HAM radio operators that would make it their mission to triangulate you signal and get you in trouble for fun... so it is likely a bad idea to tempt it considering the fines are somewhere in the 5000$ range.



Also to answer you question Dave, any VHF radio can usually receive & be quickly hacked to transmit on any frequency.... however it is illegal to do so if the radio is not designated for it.



Moving on:



So the only legal option for VHF is getting a HAM amateur radio license, the good news is I have been able to find cheap radios designated for amateur use so it isn't all that bad. The bad news of course is you need to take a test. I actually have no idea if you need to renew your licence either of if it is good for a longer period of time, still need to research that.



But what is involved is getting a study guide, then taking the exam... cost is 20$ for the exam, although there is no formal fee, it is just for the examiners time. The study guide can be sourced from a number of places, but 30$ seems to be the going rate.



As much as "Prancer" sounds like an awesome handle, your call-sign with amateur radio is assigned to you and then logged into a national database. Too bad eh? <img src='http://www.canadianhummerclub.com/forum ... >/wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />



Anyway, here is a good thread on it:

http://www.bc4x4.com/features/2010/vhf/

My call sign will be Mongo!!! Me no likey tests!!!



So I think we should get a consensus on our next run what everyone would like to do..... I think we may have already missed the boat on this topic as even though the VHF units are obviously far superior.... I think both B-Man and Gary have already installed CB's so can't change at this point.



Also - I did a quick search and I think for what I want anyways, the CB will work fine. For example there is a new unit out the Magnum 257 HP which has an output of 70 - 80 watts so that will increase it's range significantly! Then coupled with a high end antenna (or 2 on the back bumper) - I think that will do the trick quite nicely.



All we need really is a couple kms clearly but that should be more like 5-10 even in the mountains with this unit which will do the trick nicely!

I am fairly certain you are only allowed 4 watts of broadcasting power legally on HF bands.(see link)

http://www.rightchannelradios.com/pages ... c0-27.html



But I agree, barely anybody uses CB in Canada so the channels are mostly open... the range problem can be overcome with massive antennas... which look cool.